Monday, March 13, 2023

Three references for Siderfin at Timberscombe and Selworthy

Doing my slow work on the 2424 hits on FMP revealed three references which I actually do have in my database but did not really have them attached anywhere in the compilations I have been doing the past few days. The Elizabeth Siderfin daughter of Robert and Elizabeth Siderfin baptized at Timberscombe 25 Apr 1657 is one and given the presence of Robert Siderfin senior and Robert Siderfin junior on the Protestation Returns at Timberscombe in 1641 one of them is the father of Elizabeth. Tracing back to Robert (William 2, John 1) his eldest son William's son Robert was baptized 21 Nov 1613 at Luxborough and buried 8 Feb 1676 at Luxborough. His second son William was baptized 3 Jul 1615 at Luxborough and his third son Thomas was baptized 6 Aug 1618 at Luxborough and died before 14 Jun 1687 when his will was probated. The wife of William, Christian (Webber) Siderfin's will was probated 4 Jul 1648 and she mentions her grandchildren and starting with Robert the eldest she mentions his son Robert and he will be the Executor of her will. The distance from Timberscombe to Luxborough is just under eight kilometres. To avoid confusion with Robert the second son of Robert (William 2, John 1) at Minehead, this Robert married Ursula Webber 23 Jul 1612 at Luxborough but baptized their three children Wilmot 7 Jul 1614, Robert 27 May 1616 and John 11 Apr 1619 at Minehead. Robert married to Ursula Webber is likely the Robert buried 19 Jun 1636 at Luxborough primarily because there is only one Robert listed at Minehead on the Protestation Return. Christian Siderfin in her will does mention that her son Robert (still living and this is also indicated on the Protestation Returns at Timberscombe with a Robert senior and a Robert junior) has three children named Wilmot, Robert and John but Robert was baptized in 1611 so would not be having children baptized in 1614, 1616 and 1619 and hence these children must belong to the second son of Robert (William 2, John 1)  namely Robert at Minehead at that time. The distance from Minehead to Luxborough about sixteen kilometres. That covers all the adult Robert Siderfin males known to be alive according to the Parish Registers in the area. Interesting the usage of the same names but the Protestation Returns do bear this out. The records found for Siderfin using the Discovery Search Engine at the Archives of the United Kingdom may answer the question of property for these various Siderfin families but Christian's will does give some clarity to the children and grandchildren of William eldest son of Robert (William 2, John 1). 

It is the Monumental Brasses in  Somerset that helps somewhat with this discussion. Written by Arthur B Connor, FSA, labeled as Part XV  and I am trying to discover where this was published initially. I have just this set of twenty pages thus far. Reading the footnote on page 95 the author Arthur Connor has noted James Sanders book on the Siderfin family to look at these brasses. Connor mentions that Sanders is "not explicit on this subject" namely "The name Robert occurs many times in the Siderfin family." Unfortunately James Sanders does say that Robert Siderfin baptized 23 Aug 1658 at Selworthy married Elizabeth Blackford which is quite incorrect. This Robert married Elizabeth Question as shown in yesterday's blog with both Augustine Question providing details in his will to prove the connection between himself, his daughter Elizabeth and the children of Robert and Elizabeth. Thomasine Siderfin (widow) left her will as the mother of Robert and mentions her grandchildren; once again the children of Robert and Elizabeth (Question) Siderfin although she does not mention Elizabeth's maiden name but the similarity of names does tend to convince one that this too is a proof for the paternal connection. 

I find it interesting that a Robert and Elizabeth Siderfin baptized a daughter Elizabeth  in Timberscombe in 1657. Since the mother of Robert Siderfin married to Elizabeth Question is known to be Thomazine these are not the parents of this Robert Siderfin yet they are all in Selworthy which is interesting in itself. Was Selworthy chosen for a particular reason over Timberscombe where the Robert and Elizabeth Siderfin family are in 1657 when their daughter Elizabeth is baptized? This is actually the place in the tree where more information is needed to understand these three individuals

John Siderfin baptized 15 Jul 1656 at Wootton Courtney son of John and Mary (unknown) Siderfin

Robert Siderfin baptized 23 Aug 1658 at Selworthy son of ?  and Thomazine Siderfin

William Siderfin married to Mary Terrel 23 Feb 1692 at Selworthy

These three males appear to be carrying the Siderfin name forward into the next generation but I need to check that. Is this the William who is using the Siderfin crest? That might be helpful if he is. Thomasin in her will only mentioned her son Robert and her cousin Robert of East Linch (and Timberscombe since these two are generally linked together in the land records).

The abstract of the will of Thomazine Siderfin :

Thomasin Siderfin, Selworthy, widow. Will dated 2nd July, 1709. Mentions son, Robert Siderfin [would be 51 years old so Thomasin was probably into her 70s and if it was John baptized 1619 then had he lived he would be 90, must try to find his death]. Cousin Robert Siderfin, of Linch. Grandsons, John [eldest son John is interesting and could be father's name], Robert [paternal grandfather's name], Augustine [maternal grandfather's name], Thomas [maybe after Robert's mother Thomasine], various small legacies, and grand daughters, Jane, Susanna.
Witness: Thomas Trill
John Harrison
Joane Trill

Robert Siderfin at East Lynch is also known to be at Timberscombe. Is this enough to prove that whomever Thomasin married was a cousin to Robert Siderfin at East Lynch (I think Robert at East Lynch/Timberscombe is the William-line and John at Selworthy is the Robert-line so they would be first cousins since their father would be brothers. I shall have to think what could prove that; perhaps the land records would do it). We have the three baptisms in the 1650s - 1660s (William is said to be circa 1660). Still more work to be done to sort out all the Robert Siderfin members in the various generations. I find that a cousin reference tends to be a first cousin or a descendant of a first cousin when one listens to discussions with English cousins (I am Canadian).   

According to James Sanders Robert (Robert 3, William 2, John 1) had only one son John but it is known that three children were baptized at Minehead by Robert and his wife Ursula. Wilmot 1614, Robert 1616 and John 1619. That is pretty much where I am at for today. I need to look at the Parish Registers once again to make sure I have all the Siderfin entries. Given that Thomasin is seeing Robert at Linch as a cousin is interesting. Robert (William 2, John 1) mentions in his will (1627) his son Robert is at Minehead and has a son Robert. He appears to be only naming the grandchild in each family that would inherit any estate (i.e. the first born son) but does mention he has unnamed grandchildren. Between 1627 and 1641 I believe that his son Robert (Robert 3, William 2, John 1) has died in 1636 and that his son Robert (Robert 4, Robert 3, William 2, John 1) continues at Minehead and the other son of Robert (Robert 3, William 2, John 1)  John (1619) was at Selworthy. This son John either married late as Thomasin died in 1709 or there was actually another generation (but I do doubt this) in between the unknown Siderfin married to Thomasin and parents of Robert Siderfin who married Elizabeth Question. Robert Siderfin baptized 1658 at Selworthy could have been the son of John baptized in 1619 at Minehead (John would have only been 39 years of age. Thomasin does not mention any other sons. The parentage of  John baptized at Wootton Courtney 1656 and William who married Mary Terrel at Selworthy in 1692 is unknown as far as the will of Thomasin Siderfin is concerned. The land records may help to solve the problem. 

Will probably read this quite a few times over the next day. I think I may have some good theories - one Robert at East Lynch/Timberscombe is a son of William (Robert 3, William 2, John 1), two John at Selworthy is the son of Robert (Robert 3, William 2, John 1) and William is a mystery married to Mary Terrel. But James Sanders has displayed them incorrectly on the chart. I shall enter them into Legacy this way and see what the chart looks like.


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