Over the past month I have managed to read a rather fascinating book by Alistair Moffat titled The British A Genetic Journey. With all my English ancestry I have meant to read this book for awhile. Although he does not use footnotes choosing to write in a less academic style, his text is quite interesting and one can readily look into the literature and discover the science that has been published to which he refers. He paints an interesting story of the peopling of the British Isles. Some of the latest results of Big Y testing are perhaps updating his thoughts but this is an evolving study.
In my family lines, both the yDNA and the mtDNA are ancient to the British Isles according to testing done with BritainsDNA, FT DNA, and Genographic Project 2.0. The I2a2b haplogroup assignment for our yDNA results (FT DNA and I2a1b2 (ISOGG)) has been further broken down in the I2a study at FT DNA and designated as B4 along with two other results. These three results do not match but are said to belong to the same distinct group B4. This is the work of Ken Nordvedt with the three members - Abijah Sussex being traced back to Devon in the 1600s and Roger Hoyte to circa 1650s at Creed Cornwall and my paternal line traces back to Robert Blayke circa mid 1400s in the Andover Hampshire area (namely Knights Enham). Alistair Moffat refers to this group as the deer hunters as does BritainsDNA. BritainsDNA lists this group as being S-185 but further delineated as S-2640 subtype but no further information on this subgroup. S-185 is just 0.9% of I haplogroup in their study and I haplogroup is just 18.1% of their entire set of results for y haplogroup. If you have 100,000 people tested at BritainsDNA then 18,100 would be I haplogroup and 1,629 of them would belong to I2a2b. Extrapolating that to the total population of the British Isles about 68 million one would have if the percentages actually do match actuality 12 million I haplogroup and 110,000 I2a2b. This subgroup is 3x more frequent in The Irish Republic yielding approximately 84,000 for this area and 26,000 in the rest of the British Isles although the concentration would likely be in the southern to south western part of England according to charts published by BritainsDNA in my brother's results and this does appear to hold true to the results in the FT DNA group where the three members are from Cornwall, Devon and Hampshire for B4 and there are several other groups.
I found a rather interesting article about I2a2b online discussing why this group is so small in the published results (I also think that part of this is because it is a very ancient group to the British Isles and the numbers are still not really large for people testing their deep ancestry in the British Isles). For instance, not one of my 3rd and greater Blake cousins in England has tested. I do not have any 2nd cousins in the Blake line in England (my father was an only child and the only Blake grandson of Edward Blake of Upper Clatford but Edward did have brothers with sons (their father was John Blake of Upper Clatford) and he had uncles with sons (their father was Thomas Blake of Upper Clatford and he was the son of Joseph Blake of Andover)).
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26211-The-founding-and-migration-of-I2a2b
Lately, with all these discoveries of ancient burials I wonder if one day my own line will be found - an exciting prospect. But having said all of this I still do not have a match at FT DNA, the matches at BritainsDNA are for SNPs only. No Blake, other than my brother, has tested in my known line as far as I am aware. There are several matches using the limited markers of the Blood of the Isles database. Should I actively pursue my 3rd and 4th cousins living still in England in the Andover area? What would they think if I wrote to them? telephoned them? I am still considering that idea. We are going to be in that area next April following Who Do You Think You Are in Birmingham - at least that is the plan. To spend a couple of days in the Andover area including Upper Clatford. Would any of my grandfather's cousins' children be interested in seeing what I have collected? I am basically a rather shy person and the idea of cold-calling people is foreign to me. I keep thinking about my grandfather and what he would have thought if he received a call out of the blue. A few more months to think about that.
The mtDNA of my most ancient ancestress and mine as well (verified with my brother's testing) is H11a2a1. We tested back in 2007 and have watched as H11 has unfolded with the published literature giving a deeper look into H11. This is a small part of the much greater H haplogroup. H11 is about 1% of all H and my own group a much smaller part of that greater group of H11. My best matches are in Ireland and Scotland but also there are some individual matches in Russia of the coding region but they lack the extra mutations that my line has in the British Isles. Tracking the members of my H11 study at FT DNA the further you are away from Ukraina where this group likely wintered during the last Ice Age then the more mutations you have acquired. My own line has three of the four distinct ones found in the British Isles (perhaps my line has reverted on one of these mutations making it somewhat easier to spot matches!).The added mutations perhaps helped them to survive as they are named Pioneers by BritainsDNA. BritainsDNA does not look at H11 individually in their writeup. It is a very very small group in the British Isles. The Blood of the Isles database has 18 with the full four mutations and two matching myself with just three mutations in HVRI (HVRII matches in both groups). There are 16 exact matches with the larger group at FT DNA. I have one match with my brother. This is my one line that I have only family lore to go on back from my great grandmother Ellen Taylor. There is some hint that she may have been Irish so perhaps from the Planters in County Antrim where there are a couple of matches on Oxford Ancestors database or from Scotland where Sorenson has a single match.
I will write a book report in my other blog on this book.
Showing posts with label Genographic Project. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Genographic Project. Show all posts
Wednesday, October 22, 2014
Friday, May 16, 2014
H11 haplogroup - half yearly discussion
Last post on H11: http://kippeeb.blogspot.ca/2013/11/h11-haplogroup.html
The H11 project continues to grow from the 82 members in this earlier post. There are now 88 members who have done the Full Genetic Scan of the mitochondrial DNA and a total membership of 101 individuals. I have, on occasion, inserted people into their likely subclade but without a full genetic scan it is impossible to say that such placement is correct.
When I did the Gen 2.0 test (Genographic Project) on our mitochondrial DNA, the "heat map" or "resting spot" for H11a2a1 was located in Middle to Eastern Europe extending from Slovakia through Poland and into the Ukraine/Russia/Georgia/Ossettia. I have mentioned earlier that my line has good matches in Ossettia although these matches lack 16092 and 16140 (ours have these mutations). I am left to wonder if 16092 and 16140 provided our ancestors with some sort of protection in their new environment which tends to be in the northern areas of the British Isles but also located along a migration path which extends from Ossettia into Europe and thence into the British Isles and also across the Scandinavian archipelago and possibly into the northern areas of the British Isles since the frequency of my matches are in this area.
It would be interesting if others who belong to H11 would comment on this post giving their earliest known resting spot for their furtherest back ancestress. H11 is a small grouping and I think there is a potential that as a group we could add to the knowledge of our haplogroup simply by recording our known history in a systematic fashion. It is a thought that I will mention to any readers.
I have now verified my own line by doing my brother's full genetic scan. The Gen 2.0 test and the BritainsDNA had verified it but did not provide all the mutations so I did take that one step further to complete that testing. Although doing the Full Genetic Scan was thought to be a path to greater discovery for people with regard to their female ancestress the mutation rate is very very slow thus rendering a lot of our close matches but not exact matches to a thousand years in the past and making linkages difficult. So doing the full genetic scan and having perfect matches may bring us closer to paper records time frame in that it is estimated (by FT DNA) that a perfect match can show a relationship in the past six hundred years or 16 generations in 90% of people. Few people can trace their female line that far back but matches could be closer and it is necessary to take the match and trace backwards as far as one can and then bring that ancestress' children down. A long and meticulous effort but could bear fruit paticularly for anyone who is stuck in the 1700s or 1800s or 1900s!
The best matches for my brother and I but always 1 mutation less are in Ireland and Scotland and particularly in those areas where population exchange occurred across the Irish Sea between Ulster in Ireland and Ayrshire/Argyllshire in Scotland. When the ice sheets still existed north of the British Isles these two would have been joined and hence the population characteristics would be quite similar for anyone with ancient lines in these areas. Unknown to us is how our furtherest back ancestress arrived in the Midlands of England by the middle of the 1700s - a direct route down through Cumberland or a crossing from Ireland? It is anyones guess actually and I await that day when someone tests, not in our family line, that is an exact match!
An interesting very early paper on H11 : http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/11/2012.full.pdf+html
More information to follow.
The H11 project continues to grow from the 82 members in this earlier post. There are now 88 members who have done the Full Genetic Scan of the mitochondrial DNA and a total membership of 101 individuals. I have, on occasion, inserted people into their likely subclade but without a full genetic scan it is impossible to say that such placement is correct.
When I did the Gen 2.0 test (Genographic Project) on our mitochondrial DNA, the "heat map" or "resting spot" for H11a2a1 was located in Middle to Eastern Europe extending from Slovakia through Poland and into the Ukraine/Russia/Georgia/Ossettia. I have mentioned earlier that my line has good matches in Ossettia although these matches lack 16092 and 16140 (ours have these mutations). I am left to wonder if 16092 and 16140 provided our ancestors with some sort of protection in their new environment which tends to be in the northern areas of the British Isles but also located along a migration path which extends from Ossettia into Europe and thence into the British Isles and also across the Scandinavian archipelago and possibly into the northern areas of the British Isles since the frequency of my matches are in this area.
It would be interesting if others who belong to H11 would comment on this post giving their earliest known resting spot for their furtherest back ancestress. H11 is a small grouping and I think there is a potential that as a group we could add to the knowledge of our haplogroup simply by recording our known history in a systematic fashion. It is a thought that I will mention to any readers.
I have now verified my own line by doing my brother's full genetic scan. The Gen 2.0 test and the BritainsDNA had verified it but did not provide all the mutations so I did take that one step further to complete that testing. Although doing the Full Genetic Scan was thought to be a path to greater discovery for people with regard to their female ancestress the mutation rate is very very slow thus rendering a lot of our close matches but not exact matches to a thousand years in the past and making linkages difficult. So doing the full genetic scan and having perfect matches may bring us closer to paper records time frame in that it is estimated (by FT DNA) that a perfect match can show a relationship in the past six hundred years or 16 generations in 90% of people. Few people can trace their female line that far back but matches could be closer and it is necessary to take the match and trace backwards as far as one can and then bring that ancestress' children down. A long and meticulous effort but could bear fruit paticularly for anyone who is stuck in the 1700s or 1800s or 1900s!
The best matches for my brother and I but always 1 mutation less are in Ireland and Scotland and particularly in those areas where population exchange occurred across the Irish Sea between Ulster in Ireland and Ayrshire/Argyllshire in Scotland. When the ice sheets still existed north of the British Isles these two would have been joined and hence the population characteristics would be quite similar for anyone with ancient lines in these areas. Unknown to us is how our furtherest back ancestress arrived in the Midlands of England by the middle of the 1700s - a direct route down through Cumberland or a crossing from Ireland? It is anyones guess actually and I await that day when someone tests, not in our family line, that is an exact match!
An interesting very early paper on H11 : http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/11/2012.full.pdf+html
More information to follow.
Tuesday, April 29, 2014
New yDNA tree and why test your DNA
The revised yDNA tree at FT DNA is still a work in progress especially given that the Big Y results are not yet figured into that tree. The tree is primarily the result of all the testing by the National Genographic Project. Since 20% only of the results of that study are transferred to FT DNA, there will be sections of that tree that might mystify users of it.
Why test though? My grandfather and father might have said that to me I do realize. They would have said we know where we are from; who our relatives are. Why would we bother testing? It has to be because of the deep ancestry although again I must admit my grandfather certainly would have said that his family had always lived in the Andover area; like forever. It is that thought perhaps alone that has most inspired me to test DNA. No one has lived in the Andover, Hampshire, England, UK area for absolutely ever. It is possible that some creatures have lived there but they did not belong to the Homo species to which we all belong. That single item was enough for me to scrape my mouth with the little plastic tool about eight years ago and send a sample off to the Genographic Project. I wanted to be in that big project that was going to find the origin of man if it was possible to do that using DNA. A year later I asked one of my brothers if he too would go into the genographic project for our yDNA and he agreed; he too was finding the idea of our deep ancestry interesting after I showed him the map of our mtDNA coming out of Africa. Then by piecemeal I gradually purchased one test after another as curiosity would impel me forward to learn a little more. It is cheaper to just buy the full genetic scan and the 111 markers and the Gen 2.0 but I was just a little curious but I give better advice than that to people who ask me. Save your money; buy the full test.
But still to this day we do not have any matches of our yDNA and no matches of our Full Genetic Scan of the mitochondria. We were dropped on this planet from somewhere I laughingly say some days. But I know I have cousins who still live in the Andover area and I wonder will they test one day. Will they become interested in their deep ancestry?
Still FT DNA has the best database for comparison and the most surname/geographic projects of any testing agency. They are still the cheapest although I also tested my brother at BritainsDNA and I am very pleased with that result. The chromosome painting still intrigues me although I have now used GedMatch and can do that myself but I saw theirs first and they have lots of prepared charts to look at making it easy for the user to look at their results. No sharing of results there; no databases for comparison but it is all about deep ancestry and that is, primarily, still my main interest.
My grandfather used to mention his furtherest back ancestor known to him by name lived at Old Hall in Enham and there lived Nicholas as he penned his will in 1547. Now that I have pushed that back likely to Robert Blayke who also lived at Enham as he penned his will in 1521, I wonder what my grandfather would think about that. Then I also wonder what the children of his cousins would think of that. Perhaps one day I will find that out. But for the moment I can only say that testing your DNA is a fascinating way to learn about your ancient ancestors. Doing Family Finder has brought me matches but far fewer than my husband with his early colonial American ancestry. No one in my close family other than my siblings has tested.
But I think if you really want your genealogy to be complete then you need to test your DNA to tell you if that ancient male ancestor was a deer-hunter like mine living on the edge of the ice sheets as they retreated or perhaps a Roman soldier or a Celt crossing from France centuries before the Romans or perhaps a Viking or Anglo-Saxon or a Norman or perhaps you came later.
The discovery of Richard le Blak of Rouen requesting to be present at markets in England
http://kippeeb.blogspot.ca/2013/01/calendar-of-patent-rolls-summary-of.html
His license would have read thus:
"Licence, until Michaelmas, for Richard le Blak, merchant of Rouen, to
come to England to trade and to carry his wools and merchandise to the
usual fairs and markets by the public streets and common ways, provided
he do not carry or cause to be carried his wools or merchandise out of the
kingdom, nor deal with the Flemings or others of the power of the countess
of Flanders in the kingdom, or in any way communicate with them, during
the contention between the king and the said countess."
[30 May 1274 Westminster, 2 Edward I, volume 1, pages 51 - 52, Calendar of Patent Rolls]
1274 is 740 years ago. Imagine finding a record of your ancestor from 740 years ago. Now, personally, I do not think this is my ancestor. My Blake line belongs to the haplogroup named deer-hunters by BritainsDNA. Did he stay in England; I have collected some records for Richard le Blak and I need to get to transcribing them but I am an orderly person and still working on the wills. But those documents are to come and they should tell us an interesting story. Words can tell us part of the story and our dna can tell us another part.
Why test though? My grandfather and father might have said that to me I do realize. They would have said we know where we are from; who our relatives are. Why would we bother testing? It has to be because of the deep ancestry although again I must admit my grandfather certainly would have said that his family had always lived in the Andover area; like forever. It is that thought perhaps alone that has most inspired me to test DNA. No one has lived in the Andover, Hampshire, England, UK area for absolutely ever. It is possible that some creatures have lived there but they did not belong to the Homo species to which we all belong. That single item was enough for me to scrape my mouth with the little plastic tool about eight years ago and send a sample off to the Genographic Project. I wanted to be in that big project that was going to find the origin of man if it was possible to do that using DNA. A year later I asked one of my brothers if he too would go into the genographic project for our yDNA and he agreed; he too was finding the idea of our deep ancestry interesting after I showed him the map of our mtDNA coming out of Africa. Then by piecemeal I gradually purchased one test after another as curiosity would impel me forward to learn a little more. It is cheaper to just buy the full genetic scan and the 111 markers and the Gen 2.0 but I was just a little curious but I give better advice than that to people who ask me. Save your money; buy the full test.
But still to this day we do not have any matches of our yDNA and no matches of our Full Genetic Scan of the mitochondria. We were dropped on this planet from somewhere I laughingly say some days. But I know I have cousins who still live in the Andover area and I wonder will they test one day. Will they become interested in their deep ancestry?
Still FT DNA has the best database for comparison and the most surname/geographic projects of any testing agency. They are still the cheapest although I also tested my brother at BritainsDNA and I am very pleased with that result. The chromosome painting still intrigues me although I have now used GedMatch and can do that myself but I saw theirs first and they have lots of prepared charts to look at making it easy for the user to look at their results. No sharing of results there; no databases for comparison but it is all about deep ancestry and that is, primarily, still my main interest.
My grandfather used to mention his furtherest back ancestor known to him by name lived at Old Hall in Enham and there lived Nicholas as he penned his will in 1547. Now that I have pushed that back likely to Robert Blayke who also lived at Enham as he penned his will in 1521, I wonder what my grandfather would think about that. Then I also wonder what the children of his cousins would think of that. Perhaps one day I will find that out. But for the moment I can only say that testing your DNA is a fascinating way to learn about your ancient ancestors. Doing Family Finder has brought me matches but far fewer than my husband with his early colonial American ancestry. No one in my close family other than my siblings has tested.
But I think if you really want your genealogy to be complete then you need to test your DNA to tell you if that ancient male ancestor was a deer-hunter like mine living on the edge of the ice sheets as they retreated or perhaps a Roman soldier or a Celt crossing from France centuries before the Romans or perhaps a Viking or Anglo-Saxon or a Norman or perhaps you came later.
The discovery of Richard le Blak of Rouen requesting to be present at markets in England
http://kippeeb.blogspot.ca/2013/01/calendar-of-patent-rolls-summary-of.html
His license would have read thus:
"Licence, until Michaelmas, for Richard le Blak, merchant of Rouen, to
come to England to trade and to carry his wools and merchandise to the
usual fairs and markets by the public streets and common ways, provided
he do not carry or cause to be carried his wools or merchandise out of the
kingdom, nor deal with the Flemings or others of the power of the countess
of Flanders in the kingdom, or in any way communicate with them, during
the contention between the king and the said countess."
[30 May 1274 Westminster, 2 Edward I, volume 1, pages 51 - 52, Calendar of Patent Rolls]
1274 is 740 years ago. Imagine finding a record of your ancestor from 740 years ago. Now, personally, I do not think this is my ancestor. My Blake line belongs to the haplogroup named deer-hunters by BritainsDNA. Did he stay in England; I have collected some records for Richard le Blak and I need to get to transcribing them but I am an orderly person and still working on the wills. But those documents are to come and they should tell us an interesting story. Words can tell us part of the story and our dna can tell us another part.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)