My results are just a couple of days old at 23 and Me and already I have had two contacts (one I initiated and one to me). For the one it is my Blake line in Hampshire and the relationship is very ancient going back to my 11x great grandfather (I have one Blake marriage which brings two lines together at my 9x great grandparents giving a little extra boost to the genes I guess!) and the other is a mystery at the moment although we share surnames in both Hampshire and Warwickshire. So a little sleuthing to come on those lines (3rd cousin is the indication). I have 919 matches at 23 and Me but mostly in the distant category. No close relationships but 1 2nd to 4th unknown, 5 3rd to 5th cousins, 101 3rd to 6th cousins, with the remainder being more distant. About 1/3 to 1/2 are public matches. There are many many with American ancestry. My contacts were both from Australia with ( like me) 100% British Ancestry.
There are also quite a few matches with people having 100% Irish ancestry. Perhaps I will solve that elusive great grandmother after all with a match. I have one particularly good match on the X chromosome which bears further research and it is a public match. I have written and will see what happens there. This person has ancestry in Northern Ireland which is the likely place for my great grandmother to have been located or at least her family as she was born in Birmingham. The nice part is my mitochondrial DNA can be used as well. This particular grouping that I have is found principally in Northern Ireland and in Argyllshire/Ayshire Scotland. We are ancient to the British Isles (H11a2a1) although I note that the greatest frequency for our haplogroup H11a2 is The Netherlands which I think is one of the migration points out of Ukraina following the Last Ice Age. Because my matches are also in Sweden I was suspicious that they had taken the northern route to get to Scotland but a southern route across Europe into the British Isles (via Doggerland) is also very conceivable with people spreading out from a common migration route. All of this is so exciting and the area is under water (the North Sea flooded Doggerland thousands of years ago as the ice sheets retreated).
So all in all, another interesting result for me and I have taken all three autosomal results into Gedmatch and I am a perfect match for myself. Always rewarding given my science background to see the duplication of results from the same person. Since I have been involved with DNA from almost the beginning of my genealogy research days, I adhere very strongly to the principal that you really cannot do genealogy without both paper trails and DNA trails. It is amazing to be able to prove your research in such a scientific way.
Showing posts with label mtDNA H11a2. Show all posts
Showing posts with label mtDNA H11a2. Show all posts
Wednesday, June 3, 2015
Thursday, October 6, 2011
Family Finder at FT DNA
An interesting email from another tester at FT DNA for Family Finder. This one was directed towards my brother's results for Family Finder. He had a match estimated at 3rd Cousin. I knew for sure this person was not his third cousin but I had been intrigued by the match earlier. This same individual matches me as 5 - Distant Cousin which is the more likely. He also has all Scot ancestry to this day. My brother also has a second individual who matches him in exactly the same locations as estimated 3rd cousin and is also a 5 - Distant Cousin for me. The other individual lives in the United States and as far as I can tell from his Gedcom his ancestors have been in the US for at least two hundred years.
Now what am I to think about these results? On the one hand they could be quite ancient like 9th or 10th cousin and we are talking a large group of people at that level back. When I look at the second person who has already declared us to be Distant Cousins he has quite mixed ancestry from England, Ireland, The Netherlands and France plus some surnames which could be Scot. So you are left to conjecture is the individual who wrote yesterday absolutely correct with all Scot ancestry which traces back to Norman lines? When we talk about 9th or 10th cousin we are only back into the 1500s or later. How large a block of DNA will pass unbroken and from how far back? Looking back at the book which I just read on mitochondrial DNA (this is nuclear DNA for autosomal) there was some comment on the nuclear DNA which has it remaining the same for longer periods with mtDNA changing more rapidly. So conceivably a large block of autosomal DNA could pass intact from generation to generation for a long period and in this case it probably has.
However, I have one interesting fact that binds me to Scotland and that is our mtDNA which has unusual mutations (we are H11a2a1 (my coding) which is a small grouping in itself) but according to the Blood of the Isles Database which Bryan Sykes prepared our mutations take us back to Argyllshire/Ayrshire Scotland. This part of Scotland is interesting in that these peoples became planters in Ulster in the 1600s/1700s and some of them were part of Rev William Martin's emigration to the Carolinas in 1772, some remained in Ulster to this day and another group is known to have gone from Argyllshire/Ayrshire to Cumberland and thence to the Midlands in the 1700s/1800s.
I know that my great grandmother's line belonged to one of the last two groups but I have, at this time, no ideas on when her line arrived in Birmingham nor the mode by which they arrived. A few bits of family lore intimate Ireland but that family lore is from my childhood and no one in my family remembers some of the things that my mother and grandmother said about the Taylor family of Birmingham into which my Ellen Taylor was born in 1859-1860 since she is listed as 37 years of age on her death registration in 1897. Of course this is her husband listing her age and I have no idea if he knew her as a child although he was also born in Birmingham but I have all of his details and ancestry back further from himself.
From my grandmother I know that her mother was 37 when she died and so this does fit in with the death registration but would a mother have passed wrong information to a child? There is a little suspicion in my mind in that regard I have to admit. Ellen Taylor had an illegitimate child in 1879 and no more children until 1886 when my grandmother was born as the first child of her marriage with Edwin Denner Buller. In 1879 she would have been about 19 years of age. Although by process of elimination I am tentatively placing her in the family of Thomas Taylor and Ellen Roberts I only have a bit of family lore for doing that (Thomas was a shoemaker and my grandmother mentioned that her maternal grandfather was a shoemaker). The other plus was my grandmother visited Ashton under Lyne where the Taylor family lived from the mid to late 1870s having moved there from Birmingham around that time. They are on the 1881 census at Ashton without their daughter Ellen (or older son Thomas). Anyway it made for a rather exciting time trying to discover any relationship and will continue to look at it.
It is interesting though to have the contact and the ideas that these people have as to how we might be related. I do note though that the mother of this individual is descended from the Lamont Clan and the Blake family is included in that Clan. But is it my Blake family? A piece of autosomal DNA could conceivably come down through a family for many generations. That is the mystery. The Blake family is beginning to consume all my genealogy thinking time and quite rightly as it is the one name study that I am spending most of my time on. The other, Pincombe, also has some of my thinking time but it has reached the stage where only an effective yDNA study can really answer any questions.
Now what am I to think about these results? On the one hand they could be quite ancient like 9th or 10th cousin and we are talking a large group of people at that level back. When I look at the second person who has already declared us to be Distant Cousins he has quite mixed ancestry from England, Ireland, The Netherlands and France plus some surnames which could be Scot. So you are left to conjecture is the individual who wrote yesterday absolutely correct with all Scot ancestry which traces back to Norman lines? When we talk about 9th or 10th cousin we are only back into the 1500s or later. How large a block of DNA will pass unbroken and from how far back? Looking back at the book which I just read on mitochondrial DNA (this is nuclear DNA for autosomal) there was some comment on the nuclear DNA which has it remaining the same for longer periods with mtDNA changing more rapidly. So conceivably a large block of autosomal DNA could pass intact from generation to generation for a long period and in this case it probably has.
However, I have one interesting fact that binds me to Scotland and that is our mtDNA which has unusual mutations (we are H11a2a1 (my coding) which is a small grouping in itself) but according to the Blood of the Isles Database which Bryan Sykes prepared our mutations take us back to Argyllshire/Ayrshire Scotland. This part of Scotland is interesting in that these peoples became planters in Ulster in the 1600s/1700s and some of them were part of Rev William Martin's emigration to the Carolinas in 1772, some remained in Ulster to this day and another group is known to have gone from Argyllshire/Ayrshire to Cumberland and thence to the Midlands in the 1700s/1800s.
I know that my great grandmother's line belonged to one of the last two groups but I have, at this time, no ideas on when her line arrived in Birmingham nor the mode by which they arrived. A few bits of family lore intimate Ireland but that family lore is from my childhood and no one in my family remembers some of the things that my mother and grandmother said about the Taylor family of Birmingham into which my Ellen Taylor was born in 1859-1860 since she is listed as 37 years of age on her death registration in 1897. Of course this is her husband listing her age and I have no idea if he knew her as a child although he was also born in Birmingham but I have all of his details and ancestry back further from himself.
From my grandmother I know that her mother was 37 when she died and so this does fit in with the death registration but would a mother have passed wrong information to a child? There is a little suspicion in my mind in that regard I have to admit. Ellen Taylor had an illegitimate child in 1879 and no more children until 1886 when my grandmother was born as the first child of her marriage with Edwin Denner Buller. In 1879 she would have been about 19 years of age. Although by process of elimination I am tentatively placing her in the family of Thomas Taylor and Ellen Roberts I only have a bit of family lore for doing that (Thomas was a shoemaker and my grandmother mentioned that her maternal grandfather was a shoemaker). The other plus was my grandmother visited Ashton under Lyne where the Taylor family lived from the mid to late 1870s having moved there from Birmingham around that time. They are on the 1881 census at Ashton without their daughter Ellen (or older son Thomas). Anyway it made for a rather exciting time trying to discover any relationship and will continue to look at it.
It is interesting though to have the contact and the ideas that these people have as to how we might be related. I do note though that the mother of this individual is descended from the Lamont Clan and the Blake family is included in that Clan. But is it my Blake family? A piece of autosomal DNA could conceivably come down through a family for many generations. That is the mystery. The Blake family is beginning to consume all my genealogy thinking time and quite rightly as it is the one name study that I am spending most of my time on. The other, Pincombe, also has some of my thinking time but it has reached the stage where only an effective yDNA study can really answer any questions.
Friday, March 4, 2011
Private Tree on Ancestry
I have still elected to have my family tree private on Ancestry. Not because I have any living members on it other than my husband and myself but I still have a couple of lines that I feel are tentative and I do not want to add to any errors that are circulating about with respect to a few of my lines. Tracing myself back to my 3x great grandparents has been relatively straightforward and I believe that all of these lines are quite accurate except for my maternal grandmother's grandparents on her mother's side. I continue investigating the Taylor family at Birmingham with each release of any information looking at any and all Ellen Taylor births in order to be sure that I can eliminate them in favour of the particular one that seems the most likely.
My great grandmother Ellen Taylor had an illegitimate child 24 Dec 1879 at the Aston Union work house Erdington (I know this from my grandmother and from records I have acquired). Florence Taylor still appears to be at the workhouse on the 1881 census and is listed there (Florence Taylor and near to her Ellen Taylor - 2 years and 20 years respectively). I am not sure if the Ellen Taylor listed there is her mother because of the age listed (20 years old). The Ellen Buller who was buried in 1897 (my grandmother's mother) was said to be 37 years old (death registration 27 February 1897) and my grandmother also said her mother was only 37 years old when she died of pneumonia. Possibly her date of birth could have been 9 Oct 1859 if she was the child of Thomas Taylor and Ellen Roberts and this would have made her 37 years old (plus four months and some days). Would she have lied about her age in the work house? I always doubt that somewhat as people were usually too frightened to lie about details of their life to the authorities I suspect. The question is where was Ellen Taylor between 1880 and summer of 1885 (my grandmother was born (20 May 1886)? I have not yet found the marriage of Edwin Denner Buller (my great grandfather) and Ellen Taylor although all births to this couple are recorded as children of Edwin Buller and Ellen Buller whether registered by the mother or the father. Taylor is not an easy name to trace although in Birmingham this family belonged to a large family of shoemakers for a couple of generations back. By 1881 census, Thomas and Ellen Taylor are living in Ashton Under Lyne, Lancashire and they appear to have moved there initially in the late 1860s returning to Birmingham by 1871 where they are found on the census and their last child William is born. Marion their last daughter was born in 1869 at Ashton Under Lyne. A mystery that have not solved from the very beginning of my research as I knew the names of my great grandparents from childhood; their occupations; where they lived and when and how they died. The family lore of Thomas being a shoemaker was passed down to me by my grandmother. The resultant family lore and accumulated information points very strongly at the Thomas Taylor/Ellen Roberts family and I can trace this family line back one more generation at Birmingham and then further back but not very deeply I still do not feel I have sufficient evidence to claim them without a doubt.
My mtDNA H11a2 only has matches that trace back to Argyll Scotland or County Antrim Ireland and the Country Antrim people are known to be Scot Irish. The Roberts and then Lawley family are found in the Midlands - Birmingham and Shropshire before that back to the late 1700s. When did my line arrive in the Midlands from Scotland/Ireland? Well there was a lot of movement between Scotland into the Midlands and from Ireland over to the Midlands in this time period with lots of jobs available. I have not yet looked at the Lawley family to any great extent but again I am always looking at the wife of and in this case the wife of Joseph Lawley. Every once in a while I think through this set of families to see if I am missing anything that might be helpful. First and foremost I need to find a marriage between Edwin Denner Buller and Ellen Taylor. Family lore is very mixed up on this couple with tales of being married in Paris France and other such incredible stories.
Finding Clement Charles Buller (younger brother of my Edwin Buller) working in South Africa as a jeweller proved to be rather an interesting thought and Edwin Denner Buller is missing from the 1881 census (as is Clement Charles Buller). Could Edwin have gone to South Africa with his brother (their uncle was a jeweller in England and on the 1871 census Clement is listed as a jeweller assistant)? Was Edwin there in 1871 as he is missing from that census? Did he come back home without permission? The marriage was not overly popular with the family and the reasons were also mysterious so I have tended to dismiss them somewhat although keeping them in the back of my mind. Where did they marry? it would appear not in Birmingham as I have had a search made. No marriage has been listed in the GRO that is likely this couple.
Some of my reasons for maintaining my tree on ancestry as private. I can contemplate parentage of Ellen Taylor but I do not wish to be placing that into a tree that is then taken to be accurate. I still need to find more proof!
My husband has recently made a couple of trees public on ancestry which will assist a number of researchers. The one tree was prepared by Herman Whithoff who is now deceased and in his memory the tree is now made available to researchers of his many lines. Sixty years of research went into his family trees and they are extensive links back into early New England and New York. His own research goes back over fourty years and he has the most complete list of Kip/Kipp family material available. He welcomes queries and is busy now extracting all of the census material from the US and Canadian Census through the years. Watching him work through his Kipp family has inspired me to take on and do hopefully as well with the Blake family.
My great grandmother Ellen Taylor had an illegitimate child 24 Dec 1879 at the Aston Union work house Erdington (I know this from my grandmother and from records I have acquired). Florence Taylor still appears to be at the workhouse on the 1881 census and is listed there (Florence Taylor and near to her Ellen Taylor - 2 years and 20 years respectively). I am not sure if the Ellen Taylor listed there is her mother because of the age listed (20 years old). The Ellen Buller who was buried in 1897 (my grandmother's mother) was said to be 37 years old (death registration 27 February 1897) and my grandmother also said her mother was only 37 years old when she died of pneumonia. Possibly her date of birth could have been 9 Oct 1859 if she was the child of Thomas Taylor and Ellen Roberts and this would have made her 37 years old (plus four months and some days). Would she have lied about her age in the work house? I always doubt that somewhat as people were usually too frightened to lie about details of their life to the authorities I suspect. The question is where was Ellen Taylor between 1880 and summer of 1885 (my grandmother was born (20 May 1886)? I have not yet found the marriage of Edwin Denner Buller (my great grandfather) and Ellen Taylor although all births to this couple are recorded as children of Edwin Buller and Ellen Buller whether registered by the mother or the father. Taylor is not an easy name to trace although in Birmingham this family belonged to a large family of shoemakers for a couple of generations back. By 1881 census, Thomas and Ellen Taylor are living in Ashton Under Lyne, Lancashire and they appear to have moved there initially in the late 1860s returning to Birmingham by 1871 where they are found on the census and their last child William is born. Marion their last daughter was born in 1869 at Ashton Under Lyne. A mystery that have not solved from the very beginning of my research as I knew the names of my great grandparents from childhood; their occupations; where they lived and when and how they died. The family lore of Thomas being a shoemaker was passed down to me by my grandmother. The resultant family lore and accumulated information points very strongly at the Thomas Taylor/Ellen Roberts family and I can trace this family line back one more generation at Birmingham and then further back but not very deeply I still do not feel I have sufficient evidence to claim them without a doubt.
My mtDNA H11a2 only has matches that trace back to Argyll Scotland or County Antrim Ireland and the Country Antrim people are known to be Scot Irish. The Roberts and then Lawley family are found in the Midlands - Birmingham and Shropshire before that back to the late 1700s. When did my line arrive in the Midlands from Scotland/Ireland? Well there was a lot of movement between Scotland into the Midlands and from Ireland over to the Midlands in this time period with lots of jobs available. I have not yet looked at the Lawley family to any great extent but again I am always looking at the wife of and in this case the wife of Joseph Lawley. Every once in a while I think through this set of families to see if I am missing anything that might be helpful. First and foremost I need to find a marriage between Edwin Denner Buller and Ellen Taylor. Family lore is very mixed up on this couple with tales of being married in Paris France and other such incredible stories.
Finding Clement Charles Buller (younger brother of my Edwin Buller) working in South Africa as a jeweller proved to be rather an interesting thought and Edwin Denner Buller is missing from the 1881 census (as is Clement Charles Buller). Could Edwin have gone to South Africa with his brother (their uncle was a jeweller in England and on the 1871 census Clement is listed as a jeweller assistant)? Was Edwin there in 1871 as he is missing from that census? Did he come back home without permission? The marriage was not overly popular with the family and the reasons were also mysterious so I have tended to dismiss them somewhat although keeping them in the back of my mind. Where did they marry? it would appear not in Birmingham as I have had a search made. No marriage has been listed in the GRO that is likely this couple.
Some of my reasons for maintaining my tree on ancestry as private. I can contemplate parentage of Ellen Taylor but I do not wish to be placing that into a tree that is then taken to be accurate. I still need to find more proof!
My husband has recently made a couple of trees public on ancestry which will assist a number of researchers. The one tree was prepared by Herman Whithoff who is now deceased and in his memory the tree is now made available to researchers of his many lines. Sixty years of research went into his family trees and they are extensive links back into early New England and New York. His own research goes back over fourty years and he has the most complete list of Kip/Kipp family material available. He welcomes queries and is busy now extracting all of the census material from the US and Canadian Census through the years. Watching him work through his Kipp family has inspired me to take on and do hopefully as well with the Blake family.
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