Is the John Blake (son of Robert Blake) the same John who was a parliamentarian?

 Still working on the latin document and have picked my way through different parts of it. I  have to think how families that were prominent managed. The Pedigree lists the son of Richard Blague/Blaake/Blake as Henry and there isn't anything (as there is with the Baynard) to show a break (i.e. generations missing) in that chart so his son was said to be Henry and that he was son and heir. Now in British families at this time primogeniture ruled the path so younger sons would go into the military, the church or parliament. If we assume that John was a younger son of Robert (we know this to be correct because the document names Robert Blake (deceased), Joan (unknown) Blake widow, and John the son) then Robert would have had to have been a younger son perhaps since there isn't a Robert on the chart for several generations and that Robert had a Fulling Mill at Quemberford and was married to Avice (Wallop) (Malewyn) Blake. The document is dated 1386 and we know John Blake I (as listed in the Parliamentary Archives died in 1395 leaving a son John (7 years of age and born in 1388 so he is not the John in the document). What I want to gain from the document is some notion of the age of this John Blake I but haven't achieved that thus far. Since Robert was an adult at the time of the first record that I bought  in the 1330s then John Blake I was probably an older person when his son was born. The document synopsis states: "By Robert Devenyssh to Joan widow of Robert Blake and John her son of all his lands in Shawe by Savernake which he acquired from John Wyleye and Robert in Echelhampton. Witnesses: John Lye, John Warneford, John Webury, etc. Dated, Shawe, Fri Feast of St James [25 July] 10 Richard II [1386]. Seal. [Deed damaged by damp - text faint and illegible in places]." 

Perhaps I should be interested in why Robert Devenyssh passed this property to Joan (perhaps he was more interested in it going to his grandson) but I am somewhat suspicious that he was her father and the property was actually going to John himself - no ideas on that but it was perhaps promised at the time of the marriage as part of a dower but to pass to a grandson but again I haven't read the entire document yet. We will see. Anyway wanted to put this down since I was thinking about it. I did do a blog on this Robert Blake determining his proof of life at various times and the first presence I found for him was around 1310 but he would have very young at the time as I was working backwards from a document in the 1330s when he was likely an adult. This Robert did not appear on the 1301 Pipe Rolls for Wargrave but a John le Blak was at Wargrave with Richard le Blak and his daughter Alice la Blake. Since John Blake I died in 1395 leaving a seven year old son John Blake II one is left to think he was possibly older  (i.e. born in the 1330s) having served in Parliament a number of times - principally in the 1380s. That would perhaps place him in the 1380s in his late 40s or early 50s at that time if his father Robert was actually born circa 1310.

I want to have a look at the second document today as well. It is sharper and working with it will be easier. I will keep my blog up to date as I work away today.

Teatime.  

The second document was labeled as a land grant but it has a jagged edge which I understand is usually an indenture but this is a document from 1353 and perhaps when it was a transfer of land between two people they also used that method of recording (which I have now verified; this was an exchange of two acres between two people). So I have begun and this is in much better condition (but I did know that the other had weak spots and fuzzy in places; they say it in the catalogue) and it is between Robert le Blake and another individual. So in 1353 he is old enough to be managing property. Neither his wife Joan or his son John are mentioned in this document. John Blake I would have been born perhaps not long after this although difficult to determine that but he is old enough in 1386 to be on the document so likely by the early 1360s. Moving forward slowly. It is a while since I have read latin documents and this is older latin than I am used to since the wills I transcribed in Latin were from the late 1400s to the early 1500s. 

Is  he the same Robert Blake all the way through? That is always the question in my mind but the land that is being discussed is Kemerford (an earlier name for Quemberford). It is sort of hard to believe that the Blake found at Quemberford in the early 1400s wouldn't be the same Blake family but it is still I think necessary to find as much as I can to support that this is a continuous line of Blake (same family) at Quemberford through the 1300s into the 1400s and still in the 1500s. 

Good day thus far as I have done my Yoga, I cleared away the snow on the patios and then ran for 30 minutes and walked for 15 minutes. This afternoon, after a little more work, I will either do weightlifting or rowing. 

We are not going to be hit with double digit snow levels this weekend only about 5 cm. Sounds good and the more the merrier. The snow is still not that deep in the yard, perhaps half of a metre and we need a metre and a half standing to really have good moisture in the spring. 

An interesting find when I did a quick search on Quemberford:

 https://www.oodwooc.co.uk/ph_quem_aub.htm

 It is a short history of Quemerford and Pinhill and there isn't a mention of the Blake name until the 1600s at Pinhills. There is a discussion on Quemberford which is also rather interesting:

 Wyly surname is on the grant that I am working on actually as a witness. But it is interesting that up to 1335 there is no mention of the Blake family being at Kemerford/Quemberford so this acquisition in 1353 is perhaps the beginning. I believe this plaque is in the Church at Quemberford and the image prepared by D. & M. Ball (as noted on the image above).

 

Cleaning accomplished and on to the work week

Today I plan to continue working on the phasing project as well as the Blake book. I want to transcribe the two documents that I bought. They both seem to be interesting but will they support my  premise about the Blake family of Calne being descendant of Richard le Blak who is found on the Pipe Rolls in Wargrave (near Windsor) Berkshire in 1301 with his daughter Alice and possibly a son John. they are all living at Wargrave. There isn't a Robert le Blak listed but estimating his age in another blog came up with a birth after 1301. The coincidence of choosing a Richard le Blake at the top of the Blake Pedigree Chart created by the Daniel Blake family of London in 1690 with additions into the 1700s is interesting. The success of this family in the 1300s not surprising for a family of Norman origin and Richard le Blak had requested a market permit in 1274 whilst living in Rouen, Normandy. Was there another Blake family that could be the Calne Blake family in this area. It does not appear so by the records. The wills of the Blake family I have transcribed from the Wiltshire Archives and they include:

 Agnes Blake 1563 (Martin, widow of William Blake d 1545, their son John Blake)

Alice Blake 1566 (widow of Thomas Blake 1550, South Newton)

Elizabeth Blake 1583 (Marten, widow of John Blake 1582)

John Blake 1538 (Deverill Longbridge (near Warminster))

John Blake 1546 (South Newton)

John Blake 1554 (South Newton,  brother to John Blake 1546, John Blake the elder and John Blake the younger mentioned in will)

John Blake 1572 (South Newton, son of John Blake 1546?)

John Blake 1574 (Erlestoke, brothers Robert and John)

John Blake 1582 (Martyn, widow Elizabeth 1583, son of William and Agnes)

Richard Blake 1572 (Playtford, brother to Thomas and Nycholas)

Roger Blake 1557 (Pinhills, Calne, married to Mary 1570, Robert

Stephan Blake 1564 (Warminster, brothers Nicholas and John)

Thomas Blake 1550 (South Newton, his widow Alice left her will in 1566)

Thomas Blake 1565 (Playtford, brother Richard and Nycholas)

Thomas Blake 1573 (West Lavington, brothers Robert Blake and John Blake)

Thomas Blake 1584 (Warminster)

William Blake 1538 (Warminster, father of Stephan)

William Blake 1545 (Martin/Marten, wife Agnes Blake d 1563)

Mary Blake 1570 (Pinhills, Calne, widow of Roger Blake)

My blogs on these wills discuss the different lines (none of these places are that far from Calne) but are they all related? This is already two hundred years after Robert le Blake is found as a juror at Hungerford in 1338 on an Inquisition Postmortem. 

So on to the two documents which are both from the 1300s. I do trust the Pedigree Chart to a certain extent when it is discussing Robert Blake and Avis (Wallop) (Malewyn) Blake grandparents of Roger Blake above at Pinhills. That locates the family back into the 1400s. Various items that look at the business dealings between Robert le Blake and the Malewyn family in the 1300s/1400s are perhaps the linkage that helps to connect but time will tell on that. 

Robert Dale (Richmond Herald (appointed in 1721)) at the College of Arms in 1693 commented on the Blake family of Quemberford (reproduced in the Wiltshire Archaeological and Natural History Magazine, Volume 9 (Pages 223-224) published in 1866 and available on the Internet.Archive.org website:

 http://archive.org/details/wiltshirearchaeo09arch

 A Robert Dale is quoted by Clarence Hopper:

 His notes on the Blague/Blake/Blaake family

Dorsetshire, 27. Blague, alias Blaake, now [Thomas] Blake of Quemberford [Quemerford], Calne and Pynhills - 1st, arg. a chevron between 3 garbs, sab. (this is the usual arms associated with the Blake family [at Calne]). 2nd, arg. on a pile, az. 3 martlets, sil. both by this name. Crest on a chapeau, gu. turned up erm. a martlet, arg. Kent 83.

Blague of Lacock, a second branch from Quemberford. Kent 83

Blague of Hilcot, a third house from Calne. Kent 83

This fits in with the Visitation of 1565 which states that Roger Blake and Mary Baynard had three sons - Thomas at Pynnell, Robert at Lacock and John at Hilcott which matches the information found in the Wiltshire Arms and Descents article mentioned above.

Roger's father was Robert Blake married to Margaret (Englefield) and this Robert was a known son of Robert Blake and Avis (Wallop) (Malewyn) Blake. Avis Blake's Inquisition Postmorten in 1474/1475 (C 140/48/6) helps to date this family as her youngest son John was at Least 40 years of age or more. This brings the known Blake line back closer to the beginning of the 1400s. More on this as Robert Blake husband of Avis had a Fulling Mill and there is a record in 1416 that refers to that. What needs to be determined is can we relate the John Blake (Parliamentary Archives) to this Robert Blake both listed as of Quemberford in this early part of the 1400s? Time will tell and I must do Yoga and breakfast. The morning is evaporating even for this early riser. 

My only thought on the economy is diversification of our trading partners especially other Canadian provinces (eliminate the barriers). Plus we need to encourage our local industries once again as they have been lost during NAFTA/CUSMA - it is hard for a country that is so much smaller to compete against much larger companies - buy Canadian is the slogan. An American company operating here yes we buy; it needs to be made here by Canadian workers. Our unemployment at 6.7% is too high and we need to get our youth who have been trained in the trades back to work. This is good work and good money and it requires all the skills and much better talent for sure than any office job. Plus it is much healthier for our young not to be sitting in an office all day. There is money to be made in the trades. Don't create a company and then sell it to the American competition; keep it in the family and always Canadian! But that being said we have enjoyed items that came to us because of NAFTA/CUSMA but we need to protect Canadian industry as much as the Americans protect their industry. A closer economic union as Premier Ford has suggested is interesting and we can look at it.

As far as our border goes I doubt that anything can squeak across without being spotted against the white snow.  Plus it is freezing cold up here (minus 23 degrees celsius at 7:00 a.m. in the city) and not much survives out in that cold on foot. Even the animals have hibernated underground or they went south - they do not need passports!

 

 

Wiltshire Archaeological and Natural History Magazine - Volume 9

Nearly spring and the snow is all gone pretty much here. The ground looks dry instead of muddy like it usually is. Time will tell. A yellow sunrise in God's world in the east. What is God thinking as He looks at the world spread out in front of Him? He must have wept for Alexei Navalny - one of His children.  The people of Russia deserve so much more than they are getting - a war is always hardest on its people. Those at the top just live in luxury already greedy for more. The Palestinians here have not brought any children to Canada as far as I can see - they could be safe and well fed here and with very little difficulty since they are little and not a worry; They will not cause any problems for our 600,000 + Jewish people. I think the children is the saddest part; they did nothing to bring this on and it is usual to protect the children and I have a hard time understanding why they are not being protected by people who have all the luxuries of living in Canada. Protest marches are a waste of time - feed the children; bring them to safety.

Very busy working this last week as I spend this "throw-away" month looking at two possibilities - one that Richard le Blak was the founder of the Calne Blake family and two that the Pencombe family at North Molton was descendant of the Pencombe family in Pencombe, Herefordshire. Both have interesting possibilities but provable that is the question. I have looked and looked at the Blake Family Chart on the Blake Museum website (Bridgwater, Somerset) and finally I suddenly saw that perhaps Richard and Robert were interchanged at the top of the Chart and the "proof of life" details for Robert (who has a number of items in various records) did perhaps reveal that they are accidentally interchanged with Richard actually being the father of Robert. There were just too many generations between the two Roberts and not enough years. Perhaps I noted that before but I needed more data on Robert to really see it. With the Pencombe family, not finding a lot of new details but I am just getting into that. Still trying to link Philip Pynkeham at Tawstock but I think one needs to look at land documents to really sort him out. That is not going to happen in my study likely; time will tell.

The Wiltshire Archaeological and Natural History Magazine, Volume 9 (Pages 223-224) which was published in 1866 and is also available from Internet.Archive.org

 http://archive.org/details/wiltshirearchaeo09arch

There is an article in this particular magazine which discusses descent and arms of families and was produced from the notes of the Richmond Herald at the College of Arms about 1693 although he was not appointed Richmond Herald until 1721. The article Wiltshire Arms and Descents was written by Mr. Clarence Hopper and the author of the notes was Robert Dale ( he was perhaps an heraldic painter prior to his appointment is suggested ). The comment is made that the information was principally from the Visitations of 1620 time period.

His notes on the Blague/Blake/Blaake family

Dorsetshire, 27. Blague, alias Blaake, now Blake of Quemberford [Quemerford], Calne and Pynhills - 1st, arg. a chevron between 3 garbs, sab. (this is the usual arms associated with the Blake family). 2nd, arg. on a pile, az. 3 martlets, sil. both by this name. Crest on a chapeau, gu. turned up erm. a martlet, arg. Kent 83.

Blague of Lacock, a second branch from Quemberford. Kent 83

Blague of Hilcot, a third house from Calne. Kent 83

This fits in with the Visitation of 1565 which states that Roger Blake and Mary Baynard had three sons - Thomas at Pynnell, Robert at Lacock and John at Hilcott which matches the information found in the Wiltshire Arms and Descents article mentioned above.

I did review "Index of Persons Named in Early Chancery Proceedings 1385-1467" produced as The Publication of The Harleian Society Volume LXXIX (1928).There are Blake entries namely John Blak, Rawlyn Blak, Richard Blak, Andrew Blake, Edmond Blake, Edmund Blake (6 entries), John Blake (4 entries), Simon Blake (2 entries), Thomas Blake (4 entries), Walter Blake, William Blake (3 entries). 

Name                      Page              Suit#

John Blak                62                 243

Rawlyn Blak          176               345

Richard Blak          62                243

Andrew Blake         3                  69

Edmond Blake      238              174

Edmund Blake     134               319

Edmund Blake     134               325

Edmund Blake     144               240

Edmund Blake     158               606

Edmund Blake     221              164

Edmund Blake     239              204

John Blake           16                 10

John Blake           20               103 

John Blake         204               490

John Blake         295              353

Simon Blake      144              240

Simon Blake      238              174

Thomas Blake   134              329

Thomas Blake   285               74

Thomas Blake   293             307

Thomas Blake   390               13

Walter Blake     154             505

 William Blake   30             131

William Blake    30             148

William Blake  166              88

I will check for Wiltshire, Hampshire, Berkshire in Discovery Catalogue at the UK National Archives for all of these entries.

 John Blak - 13 records from 1300-1499 -  10 are mostly from Norfolk with one from Devon

1. 1400s. Ogbourne St Andrew, Wiltshire C 1/1495/32, grandson William Blake plaintiff. 

2. 1382. Document witnessed by John Blak (dealt with Calne area, Wiltshire).

3. 1489. Thornbury, Gloucestershire E 40/13329-13344. Joan wife of Thomas Pacche daughter and heir of John Blak. Interesting in that the Blake family of Calne is found in Gloucestershire after leaving Calne area.

Rawlyn Blak -  1 record from 1400-1499 - Leicestershire

Richard Blak - 1 record from 1400-1499 - Norfolk

Andrew Blake - 2 records from 1300-1499 - Kent, Sussex

Edmond Blake - 0 records from 1300-1499

Edmund Blake - 12 records from 1300-1499 - 10 Norfolk, 1 Essex, 1 Surrey

To be continued the next Blake day.

Calendar of Patent Rolls and my first task is to check for Robert le Blake and Robert Blake and this is between  1230 and 1452:

1357 21 Oct Westminster  (membrane 12)

Pardon in like terms to John Gosegh merchant of Salisbury on,

his outlawry in the county of Wilts for non-appearance to answer

touching a plea of Robert Blake, Thomas son of Walter de Hungerford

Edward Cokerel and Henry Flemyng,executors of the will of Henry

Russel, citizen of Salisbury, late executor of the will of John

Godhyne late burgess and merchant of Marlebergh that he render

to them 110 l

31 Edward III, volume 10, page 630

One mention only of Robert Blake and it involves a case in Salisbury and Marlebergh which is likely Marlborough and not too far from Calne and Devizes so an interesting find to have a Robert, adult since he is  the executor of a will (although there are exceptions but generally so), in 1357. Continuing proof of life for this Robert and since he is not named at all in the Chancery Proceedings commencing in 1385 he is likely deceased by then as his likely wife Joan and son John were involved in a land transaction in 1386 where Joan is named as a widow. The land mentioned is Shawe by Savernake. I did locate a Shaw in Wiltshire  which is Shaw cum Donnington and of all things it is not too distant from Speen which I mentioned as being another Blake location associated with the Andover Blake family (A genealogical Gazetteer of England, Frank Smith, Baltimore, 1987). It is also close enough to Marlborough which is east of Calne and Devizes. An interesting find perhaps. 

I will have a look for Richard la Blak or Richard Blake in the Calendar of Patent Rolls. The one in Rouen, Normandy,  in 1274 is known as that was his permission to set up a market in England. Any of the references have no connection to Wiltshire. 

So I think Robert le Blake is now verified and the wife of Robert was likely Joan and at least one son John. 

I am tempted though to suspect that Robert is a son of Richard le Blak located at Wargrave, Berkshire in 1301 on the Pipe Rolls of the Bishopric of Winchester. Richard Blague does not bring up any hits on the Discovery catalogue. Is it possible that Robert should come after Richard as his son although not mentioned on the Pipe Rolls at Wargrave but there is a John Blak at Wargrave (although he is not named as a son of Richard in that record). But Robert was not likely born until 1313 or shortly before that and he does name a son John. 

Jumping ahead to Robert Blake  of Quemberford and dates online are 1412-1474 for his lifespan. I was not successful on Wednesday with the middle members of the chart above namely Henry, William and Henry but whipping ahead might be helpful. So if we have a date for the first Robert let us say of 1313 to 1386 then this Robert is born 100 years later approximately. If we eliminate Richard from this line coming down then we are left with Henry, William and Henry. This would have Henry as a son of the first Robert (and I suspect he is born before 1313 so Henry born circa 1330s and a William born circa 1350s and a Henry born circa 1380s and that is likely a reasonable span of years for most generations  (actually short when I consider my own generations). But I am suggesting that Richard le Blak is the father of the first Robert and the two just need to be interchanged. 

Quemberford is rather interesting because a Robert Blake is said to have owned a fulling mill in Quemerford. Looking at the British History website (https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol17/pp17-27 ), and Blackland in particular there is a small map on this page which is rather interesting:

In the writeup about Blacklands the Manor and House both known as Blackland was held by Richard de Canville in 1194 and before that date was part of the King's large estate called Calne. At some point after 1086 the land was part of the Calstone estate and was granted away giving some prehistory to Richard de Canville holding the property in 1194. It then descended in the Canville line with a little bit of interesting history and was given or sold to Malmesbury abbey before 1262. It was then held until 1539 by the Abbey until it was dissolved and the manor then passed to the Crown. It then passed into several families until the late 1780s when it passed to the Maundrell family who apparently held property in Compton Bassett which was called Blake. Somewhat interesting but it does not appear that a Robert (le) Blake held Blacklands at any time. 

Continuing to look at British History Online under Calne:Economic History (originally published by Victoria County History, London, 2002) and Mills, Trade and Industry (Source: 'Calne: Economic history', in A History of the County of Wiltshire: Volume 17, Calne, (London, 2002) pp. 79-94. British History Online https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol17/pp79-94 [accessed 12 March 2024])."A fulling mill in Quemberford belonged to Robert Blake (d. 1515 (Public Record Office, C142/31, no. 53)) and was on the estate at Quemerford conveyed by Robert's grandson Thomas Blake to Henry Chivers in 1560." 

 Robert Blake married to Avis (Wallop) (Malwyn) Blake's son John named his brother Robert (married to Margaret Englefield) as heir to the property which included the Fulling Mill at Quemberford in 1504. Their son Roger Blake married to Mary Baynard had a son Thomas who is noted above as inheriting the mill and selling it. This is seen clearly on the Blake Pedigree Chart held by the Swindon and Wiltshire Record Office.

The value of these two charts is quite huge even if over time one notes difficulties with the Chart but overall the parts of the chart that can be verified by records are a great addition to this Blake family. The intent of the Blake Family Chart at the Blake Museum Bridgwater is to illustrate the Blake Family in Somerset and it does it very well actually. I have blogged on it in the past. I did not see it but I am sure it is a treasure to do so especially if you descend from the Somerset Blake line. 

So today finding the Robert Blake record near Speen is most interesting and continues my thought that at some point in the far past (I suspect late 1200s early 1300s) the Calne Blake and the Andover Blake families were related on the female side and their friendship is still seen in the wills in the 1500s. Having so much material in one place whether you might not quite agree with all the entries is a great asset to the Blake family. 

But I  have still not actually proven that Richard Le Blak is the progenitor of the Calne Blake family but I think there are not a lot of choices looking at the Blake records in the 1200s/1300s. The 1274 permit to set up a market was a great opportunity for Richard le Blak in England but there is an effigy in the Rouen Cathedral in Normandy and it wasn't possible to determine exactly who this person was. Perhaps a look at the French records might be in order.